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	<title>Comments for DingoAccess</title>
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	<link>http://www.dingoaccess.com</link>
	<description>Random thoughts, stories and ideas from Roger Hudson of Web Usability</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 06:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on Accessing Nav Drop-Downs by Sailesh Panchang</title>
		<link>http://www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/accessing-nav-drop-downs/comment-page-1/#comment-576</link>
		<dc:creator>Sailesh Panchang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 18:34:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dingoaccess.com/?p=447#comment-576</guid>
		<description>The nav-menus on the Mozilla site are accessible via keyboard with and without a screen reader in use. Alt+left/right arrow keys open and move focus to menu on left or right. Escape closes menu and one can tab through main menu items or sub menu items (when sub menu is open). Use of lists is good. Screen reader users can use list item navigation too.   The role of every main menu link should be conveyed to AT e.g. “Product Menu” or “Add-on menu” and so on. Off-screen text on the anchor and a title attribute will accomplish this. The museum site: a screen reader user can use list item navigation to move from one main menu link to the next without stepping through sub menu list of links. But a sighted keyboard-only user cannot do this. And the “menu” role for links is not announced. Again use of list markup is good. This has scope for improvement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The nav-menus on the Mozilla site are accessible via keyboard with and without a screen reader in use. Alt+left/right arrow keys open and move focus to menu on left or right. Escape closes menu and one can tab through main menu items or sub menu items (when sub menu is open). Use of lists is good. Screen reader users can use list item navigation too.   The role of every main menu link should be conveyed to AT e.g. “Product Menu” or “Add-on menu” and so on. Off-screen text on the anchor and a title attribute will accomplish this. The museum site: a screen reader user can use list item navigation to move from one main menu link to the next without stepping through sub menu list of links. But a sighted keyboard-only user cannot do this. And the “menu” role for links is not announced. Again use of list markup is good. This has scope for improvement.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Accessing Nav Drop-Downs by David Farough</title>
		<link>http://www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/accessing-nav-drop-downs/comment-page-1/#comment-575</link>
		<dc:creator>David Farough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 15:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dingoaccess.com/?p=447#comment-575</guid>
		<description>I tried some of the Yahoo 3 examples which Terrill Thompson pointed us to using the Jaws 11.0.1467 (current version).  some of these worked quite well while others were less successful.  I thought that the guidelines around the presentation of menus and the propper behaviour of menus made sence.  It's too bad that these are not more widely adopted.  I think that consistancy is important.  I think that it does not make sense to require the use of enter to open a main menu item if the item indicates that it is a submenu then the right arrow key should open the menu.  When I moved to one of the main menu items, Jaws told me that it was a sub menu.  I pressed enter to open the menu and then arrowed through the items.  I could open a item which was a sub menu by pressing the right arrow key.  In one of the examples I tried, I would hear Jaws speak the previously selected menu item and the newly selected menu item as I arrowed through the menu items.  I also noticed when activating a menu that sometimes I would hear the click sound which is associated with the activation of the Jaws Forms mode.  This was a little disconcerting.but I have to say these samples are a vast improvement from the yahoo 2 samples.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tried some of the Yahoo 3 examples which Terrill Thompson pointed us to using the Jaws 11.0.1467 (current version).  some of these worked quite well while others were less successful.  I thought that the guidelines around the presentation of menus and the propper behaviour of menus made sence.  It&#8217;s too bad that these are not more widely adopted.  I think that consistancy is important.  I think that it does not make sense to require the use of enter to open a main menu item if the item indicates that it is a submenu then the right arrow key should open the menu.  When I moved to one of the main menu items, Jaws told me that it was a sub menu.  I pressed enter to open the menu and then arrowed through the items.  I could open a item which was a sub menu by pressing the right arrow key.  In one of the examples I tried, I would hear Jaws speak the previously selected menu item and the newly selected menu item as I arrowed through the menu items.  I also noticed when activating a menu that sometimes I would hear the click sound which is associated with the activation of the Jaws Forms mode.  This was a little disconcerting.but I have to say these samples are a vast improvement from the yahoo 2 samples.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Accessing Nav Drop-Downs by Steve Gibbings</title>
		<link>http://www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/accessing-nav-drop-downs/comment-page-1/#comment-571</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Gibbings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dingoaccess.com/?p=447#comment-571</guid>
		<description>I think a standard would be good but getting everyone to even be aware of it yet alone follow it will be the real difficulty.  Personally if there are hundreds of sub items to tab or arrow through I would say that has usability issues not just keyboard issues.  I have seen very deep long structures of sub nav items which are just as hard to know what to click on for mouse, sighted users let alone those with keyboard or using a screen reader.  Add to that the often duplicated or awkward terms used leaves users unsure what to click on.

Long dropdown navs are misused often as a result of little thought.  I prefer having sub items nav on the sub page where it can be given context.  That might be "one more click" but it's better than the two or three that might occur as a user tries to understand a complex nav structure.

If the dropdowns have just a few items then I guess it might be useful to all but I try to avoid them on every main nav still and have a sub nav on the sub page.

The trouble with selecting any option, a standard or not, is that user may not like them, the change might confuse them as they have developed managing behaviours.

I'd be interested in hearing any use of heading tags in main navs, would screen reader users prefer the familiar heading navigation?

There is the mobile user issue too, where the oft used :hover is used to show dropdowns.  That clearly doesn't function and if the main nav is only accessible by a keyboard stroke.  Compacting that is where the main nav acts as a link as well, tapping or clicking on it will cause a navigation so the dropdown isn't even seen.

I think this is a much more complex situation that it might appear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a standard would be good but getting everyone to even be aware of it yet alone follow it will be the real difficulty.  Personally if there are hundreds of sub items to tab or arrow through I would say that has usability issues not just keyboard issues.  I have seen very deep long structures of sub nav items which are just as hard to know what to click on for mouse, sighted users let alone those with keyboard or using a screen reader.  Add to that the often duplicated or awkward terms used leaves users unsure what to click on.</p>
<p>Long dropdown navs are misused often as a result of little thought.  I prefer having sub items nav on the sub page where it can be given context.  That might be &#8220;one more click&#8221; but it&#8217;s better than the two or three that might occur as a user tries to understand a complex nav structure.</p>
<p>If the dropdowns have just a few items then I guess it might be useful to all but I try to avoid them on every main nav still and have a sub nav on the sub page.</p>
<p>The trouble with selecting any option, a standard or not, is that user may not like them, the change might confuse them as they have developed managing behaviours.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d be interested in hearing any use of heading tags in main navs, would screen reader users prefer the familiar heading navigation?</p>
<p>There is the mobile user issue too, where the oft used :hover is used to show dropdowns.  That clearly doesn&#8217;t function and if the main nav is only accessible by a keyboard stroke.  Compacting that is where the main nav acts as a link as well, tapping or clicking on it will cause a navigation so the dropdown isn&#8217;t even seen.</p>
<p>I think this is a much more complex situation that it might appear.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Accessing Nav Drop-Downs by Nymphaea Notschaele</title>
		<link>http://www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/accessing-nav-drop-downs/comment-page-1/#comment-570</link>
		<dc:creator>Nymphaea Notschaele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2010 09:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dingoaccess.com/?p=447#comment-570</guid>
		<description>I find in remarkable that you find inconsistencies between navigating drop-down menus with and without screen reader. This is important to know when evaluating a website for accessibility.

On your question Which is better and why? 
Once we have a standard this will no longer be such an important question but in the mean while ... 
I (as a sighted occasional keyboard user) like nr. 2 Tab and arrow. This because I am used to use arrow keys for navigating in window menus and it saves me from tabbing trough all items in the menu.

By the way have you considered testing with speech recognition?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find in remarkable that you find inconsistencies between navigating drop-down menus with and without screen reader. This is important to know when evaluating a website for accessibility.</p>
<p>On your question Which is better and why?<br />
Once we have a standard this will no longer be such an important question but in the mean while &#8230;<br />
I (as a sighted occasional keyboard user) like nr. 2 Tab and arrow. This because I am used to use arrow keys for navigating in window menus and it saves me from tabbing trough all items in the menu.</p>
<p>By the way have you considered testing with speech recognition?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Accessing Nav Drop-Downs by Terrill Thompson</title>
		<link>http://www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/accessing-nav-drop-downs/comment-page-1/#comment-565</link>
		<dc:creator>Terrill Thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:54:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dingoaccess.com/?p=447#comment-565</guid>
		<description>Great article, Roger, and an important topic! A couple of thoughts: 

First, the Yahoo! menu you're reviewing uses YUI2. The accessibility of the YUI3 menu (called MenuNav Node Plugin) is much improved. There are several examples linked from this page: 

http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/3/examples/node-menunav/index.html

Also, the DHTML Style Guide Working Group is a group of people representing a couple of dozen organizations, working together to define a standard interface for various DHTML widgets. Here's what they have to say about the "menu" widget: 

http://dev.aol.com/dhtml_style_guide#menu</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article, Roger, and an important topic! A couple of thoughts: </p>
<p>First, the Yahoo! menu you&#8217;re reviewing uses YUI2. The accessibility of the YUI3 menu (called MenuNav Node Plugin) is much improved. There are several examples linked from this page: </p>
<p><a href="http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/3/examples/node-menunav/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/3/examples/node-menunav/index.html</a></p>
<p>Also, the DHTML Style Guide Working Group is a group of people representing a couple of dozen organizations, working together to define a standard interface for various DHTML widgets. Here&#8217;s what they have to say about the &#8220;menu&#8221; widget: </p>
<p><a href="http://dev.aol.com/dhtml_style_guide#menu" rel="nofollow">http://dev.aol.com/dhtml_style_guide#menu</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Accessing Nav Drop-Downs by Mike Elledge</title>
		<link>http://www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/accessing-nav-drop-downs/comment-page-1/#comment-564</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Elledge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dingoaccess.com/?p=447#comment-564</guid>
		<description>Sorry--I placed enter in brackets which caused it to be deleted from my note. Roger, please feel free to delete my earlier note and this sentence.

Thanks for the good review, Roger! I would be interested in hearing from more JAWS users about their preference for using enter or the arrow keys to initiate a dropdown menu. Since enter is commonly used to instigate a function, and arrows are commonly used for moving through lists, it seems like we have a hybrid situation. As a sighted person, I would think that it would be more convenient and more intuitive to move through a list of subpages using arrow keys, eliminating the need for pressing enter. But perhaps that would be confusing for screen reader users?

At any rate, a nice writeup on an important topic!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry&#8211;I placed enter in brackets which caused it to be deleted from my note. Roger, please feel free to delete my earlier note and this sentence.</p>
<p>Thanks for the good review, Roger! I would be interested in hearing from more JAWS users about their preference for using enter or the arrow keys to initiate a dropdown menu. Since enter is commonly used to instigate a function, and arrows are commonly used for moving through lists, it seems like we have a hybrid situation. As a sighted person, I would think that it would be more convenient and more intuitive to move through a list of subpages using arrow keys, eliminating the need for pressing enter. But perhaps that would be confusing for screen reader users?</p>
<p>At any rate, a nice writeup on an important topic!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Accessing Nav Drop-Downs by Mike Elledge</title>
		<link>http://www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/accessing-nav-drop-downs/comment-page-1/#comment-563</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Elledge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:36:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dingoaccess.com/?p=447#comment-563</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the good review, Roger! I would be interested in hearing from more JAWS users about their preference for using  or the arrow keys to initiate a dropdown menu. Since  is commonly used to instigate a function, and arrows are commonly used for moving through lists, it seems like we have a hybrid situation. As a sighted person, I would think that it would be more convenient and more intuitive to move through a list of subpages using arrow keys, eliminating the need for pressing . But perhaps that would be confusing for screen reader users?

At any rate, a nice writeup on an important topic!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the good review, Roger! I would be interested in hearing from more JAWS users about their preference for using  or the arrow keys to initiate a dropdown menu. Since  is commonly used to instigate a function, and arrows are commonly used for moving through lists, it seems like we have a hybrid situation. As a sighted person, I would think that it would be more convenient and more intuitive to move through a list of subpages using arrow keys, eliminating the need for pressing . But perhaps that would be confusing for screen reader users?</p>
<p>At any rate, a nice writeup on an important topic!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>Comment on Accessing Nav Drop-Downs by Karl Dawson</title>
		<link>http://www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/accessing-nav-drop-downs/comment-page-1/#comment-562</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Dawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:21:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dingoaccess.com/?p=447#comment-562</guid>
		<description>Hi Roger,

Very interesting article thanks!

I built the Museum site a few years back now using the &lt;a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/j_birch/plugins/superfish/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Suckerfish jQuery plugin&lt;/a&gt; for the main navigation. I like the Mozilla approach of enabling the arrow keys though because tabbing down through big lists would get tiresome pretty quick. I'm surprised the Yahoo! menu had shortcomings, they're usually on the ball when it comes to accessibility but as you say, we still don't have a consistent method and any technique would have to be covered on a site help page. I think we're there with regards to using nested lists (I hope) - *just* the behaviour to sort now!

Thanks again, Karl
@singlecelldsgn</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Roger,</p>
<p>Very interesting article thanks!</p>
<p>I built the Museum site a few years back now using the <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/j_birch/plugins/superfish/" rel="nofollow">Suckerfish jQuery plugin</a> for the main navigation. I like the Mozilla approach of enabling the arrow keys though because tabbing down through big lists would get tiresome pretty quick. I&#8217;m surprised the Yahoo! menu had shortcomings, they&#8217;re usually on the ball when it comes to accessibility but as you say, we still don&#8217;t have a consistent method and any technique would have to be covered on a site help page. I think we&#8217;re there with regards to using nested lists (I hope) - *just* the behaviour to sort now!</p>
<p>Thanks again, Karl<br />
@singlecelldsgn</p>
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		<title>Comment on Accessing Nav Drop-Downs by Hamish Mackenzie</title>
		<link>http://www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/accessing-nav-drop-downs/comment-page-1/#comment-561</link>
		<dc:creator>Hamish Mackenzie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dingoaccess.com/?p=447#comment-561</guid>
		<description>Hey roger

I am a Jaws user and I prefer the method where tabbing will take one to the main items and then hitting enter on the item opens the drop down and one can navigate by either tab or arrow.  Using some form of message saying something along the lines of "press enter to expand" or something along those lines when the main item gets focus would also help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey roger</p>
<p>I am a Jaws user and I prefer the method where tabbing will take one to the main items and then hitting enter on the item opens the drop down and one can navigate by either tab or arrow.  Using some form of message saying something along the lines of &#8220;press enter to expand&#8221; or something along those lines when the main item gets focus would also help.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Accessing Nav Drop-Downs by Priti Rohra</title>
		<link>http://www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/accessing-nav-drop-downs/comment-page-1/#comment-559</link>
		<dc:creator>Priti Rohra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:56:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dingoaccess.com/?p=447#comment-559</guid>
		<description>I will suggest allow users accessing the web via keyboard with or without screen readers to Tab through the main navigation options and open/close the drop-down menu with the Enter key if they wish and access the sub-options. Access to the sub-options should be available with Tab as well as Arrow keys. Most importantly provide instructions to users on how to use the same using the site Help or as an instruction link that can be accessed if required.

If we can make drop-down menus wherein users can navigate through the main options using the Tab as well as Left/Right Arrow keys would be an icing on the cake!

Cheers,
Priti Rohra</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will suggest allow users accessing the web via keyboard with or without screen readers to Tab through the main navigation options and open/close the drop-down menu with the Enter key if they wish and access the sub-options. Access to the sub-options should be available with Tab as well as Arrow keys. Most importantly provide instructions to users on how to use the same using the site Help or as an instruction link that can be accessed if required.</p>
<p>If we can make drop-down menus wherein users can navigate through the main options using the Tab as well as Left/Right Arrow keys would be an icing on the cake!</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
Priti Rohra</p>
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